As promised, is Ken’s masterful scientific study concerning the bloodlines out-of Llewelyn Fawr and you can Joanna Leave a comment
Just ‘Ellen’s’ name stays a mystery, around is apparently zero-you to definitely entitled Ellen otherwise Helen, but perhaps an ‘Eleanor’ with the Joanna’s top (Eleanor off Aquitaine, mother away from Joanna’s dad Queen John)
Hi, someone. It’s its fascinating; what i would not enjoys given to get access to this article twenty-5 years ago whenever i was evaluating and you may creating Right here Become Dragons!
An important reason for it exercise is to use, from the a review of genealogist’s viewpoints about them and by consulting specific known modern supplies, to determine who had been mom away from Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Are she Joanna, partner from Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Born circa.1188, passed away. March 1237) otherwise is she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch off Rhos, mistress out of Llywelyn, created circa. 1168, died??
I am going to follow this that have a vacation study on you’ll be able to existence out-of a beneficial ded Susanna, given over to Queen Henry 111 due to the fact a great hostage in the 1228 together with her infant custody being supplied to Sir Nicholas Verdun along with his partner Clementia.
The newest views of your Genealogists that we keeps examined are merely you to definitely, opinions, as well as disagree significantly. Zero unique evidence can be found regardless, but have to say that the vast majority of keep getting Gwladus are the fresh new daughter of Joanna. This is especially true of your genealogists of the descendants out of the De- Braose household members, even so they ily to get linked with both the Welsh and you can English royal home!
The following list off Llywelyn’s numerous genuine and you can illegitimate college students seems become fundamentally recognized because of the all genealogists that we enjoys read except for variations more if number 9 extremely stayed. New dates out of delivery here are debated because of the certain:
- Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, created circa.1199, passed away 1244
- Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, created circa.1206, died 1251
- Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
- Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1208? died circa 1263,
- Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince out-of Wales, produced circa 1208 (1211?) (doubts about any of it date, get a hold of later on), died twenty five February 1246,
- Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1209 died 1281.
- Angharad ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1210, died 1257
- Tegwared ap Llywelyn – born circa 1210, you’ll be able to twin so you’re able to Angharad?
- ‘Helen’, otherwise ‘Susanna’, created circa 1214? Died 1259?
Discover much argument along the term of your own mothers of such children. You will find standard arrangement that simply certain students off Llywelyn’s elizabeth Prince regarding Wales and Ellen (Helen) just who hitched (1) John the fresh Scot, young man of your own earl from Chester and you may (2) Robert de- Quincy. Even though advice is split along side moms and dads out-of Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and Susanna, a lot of genealogists You will find learnt lean into its mommy being Joanna.
This is exactly partly due to their heading times from birth due to the fact really as his or her marriage ceremonies to various marcher lords whom, you to supposes, could have looked for to help you fall into line their houses to this of their neighbor, this new Prince away from North Wales along with his spouse, the queen of England’s daughter. It’s believed these lords of one’s March won’t have had much interest or political desire during the marrying from their sons with the illegitimate daughters regarding a great Welsh prince which have a beneficial Welsh woman.
As to the labels ones youngsters, whether or not because of the Joanna, Tangwystl otherwise someone else, they certainly were the titled immediately after members of Llywelyn’s nearest and dearest:
Ken, our company is entirely on your own obligations
Llywelyn’s mommy is actually entitled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ off Gwynedd. Their paternal granny was titled ‘Gwladus’. The parents out of his grandmother Susanna, was basically ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you can ‘Angharad’ of Flint and you may both the brands received to help you Llywelyn’s pupils. It Susanna and had an aunt called ‘Gwenllian’, the same title because Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.
